My fellow Washington Monthlyite James Fallows mocks Trump’s claim that “illegal immigrants are taken better care of than our veterans.” This is “not true,” Fallows says, “and no one who has thought about it for more than one second could imagine otherwise.” He points to the GI-Bill and federal hiring preferences, but runs into trouble when he hits health care and the VA. Fallows writes:
The VA hospital system has had numerous, serious, well-publicized problems. On the other hand it exists (unlike some notional Illegal Immigrants Hospital System), and before the recent scandals it was often studied and cited as a model of progressive medical practices. Many millions of veterans receive medical care through the VA. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Medicaid, Medicare, treatment under Obamacare exchanges, or most private insurance coverage and generally rely on emergency rooms or cash-up-front treatment centers. ** [Emphasis added.]
Jim! So before we discovered that VA care was scandalously awful, we thought it was a model!*** And before we learned we were losing the Vietnam war, we were told we were winning it! How is that evidence against Trump, as opposed to those who did the studies? Given what we know now about veterans’ health care, it’s entirely possible that illegal immigrants who are treated in emergency rooms at good hospitals wind up getting better care than vets who play by the rules at the VA. Indeed, I’ve talked to enough liberal, compassionate doctors who rage about all the expensive, unpaid care illegals get that their patients can’t get — one of these docs was attending a Dem event at Matt Miller’s! – to suspect that this indeed the case. Trump is onto something.
P.S.: It doesn’t seem very Washington Monthlyesque to take the existence of a large bureaucracy as evidence citizens are being well-served, or to believe studies of various officially reported outcomes — which in the VA’s case turned out to be crude examples of what TWM founder Charles Peters called “Washington Make-Believe” — over actual accounts of what is happening on the ground.
Update: If you listen to the audio, Trump actually said: “And in many cases, illegal immigrants are taken much care, really are taken much better care, by this country, taken care of than our veterans.” Fallows leaves out Trump’s initial qualifier. If you stick it back in, what Trump said is almost certainly true.
Backfill: D.A. King wrote about the disparity in 2007 — including the 2003 introduction of a means-test for VA care (and why you don’t want to wind up in “Category 8g”).
Alert Reader Alert: If you have experience, positive or negative, with veterans’ care — or with illegal immigrant care, for that matter — please write about it either in the comments below or on Twitter. That seems like the fastest way to get at the truth. Thanks.
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**– What Fallows doesn’t say: Illegals can get free federally-subsidized care even if they don’t qualify for Medicaid under a program called “emergency Medicaid.” This includes maternity care and (in some states) dialysis and chemotherapy. I’m not saying they shouldn’t get it (or should get it). I’m saying it might be better than VA care, or other care that vets get.
***– Even before the scandal broke, Reason’s Peter Suderman criticized Paul Krugman when Krugman touted the VA as a model of “progressive” care. Suderman’s piece describes the VA’s “priority group” system, which, even on paper, makes the agency more useful to some vets than to others. Maybe Trump was talking about the others.
RT @kausmickey: Why @realDonaldTrump may be right and @TheAtlantic wrong (about illegals vs. vets) https://t.co/Vrg3duLbIQ
RT @kausmickey: Actually Trump said “IN MANY CASES” illegals taken better care of than vets. Makes big diff. if leave off qualifier! https:…
Illegals vs. Vets: Trump Has A Point https://t.co/7Q17zX3dBi
I’m a veteran and I’ve been extremely well taken care of by the US government. I had VA care for 5 years and received generous college money such that I’ve obtained a double-major in political science and sociology, a master’s in demographic analysis, and am working on a PhD at a very good school. I know I will have access to assistance when it comes time to buy a house. I received 9 weeks of job and school application training before I transitioned out of the army, and know that there are many other veteran’s services available to me (California, for example, will pay for college for my children). Yes, illegal immigrants can get some help by our government but it’s willful ignorance to think they are better taken care of than veterans.
Additionally, veterans can also go to the emergency room
RT @kausmickey: Video of what Trump really said is here [at 5:00] https://t.co/2zqMpNOAqA Almost too moderate to defend! https://t.co/Vrg3d…
I worked at Maricopa Integrated Health System, the county hospital and network of clinics and health plans, from 2001 to 2004. An overwhelming majority of our patients were “monolingual Spanish-speaking,” and most likely illegal aliens. There are many things to consider when we talk about any statistics involving illegal aliens. The first being, that most government and government-funded agencies probably don’t even collect their “client’s” immigration status. We didn’t. Anyone involved in intake would ask for a “client’s” social security number, and if they didn’t have one, they would just assign them an ID number. They never inquired about immigration status or nationality. So all the open borders lobby who always whine that “there is no evidence to support” whatever undesirable phenomenon (for example communicable diseases, crime, dependence on means-tested programs, etc.) they’re discussing is higher in this population doesn’t realize or won’t acknowledge that these data aren’t even collected, and all we usually have to go on is anecdotal evidence or, at best, incomplete data. My personal experience as a grant writer who also worked on a team to administer grant-funded programs that served mostly suggests that Trump is correct. Back then I wasn’t paying attention to news stories about the VA, and I didn’t have any personal experience with it. However, I grew up in the ’70s and ’80s in rural southeastern Nebraska, and I was constantly amazed at the extent to which all of us involved–directly or indirectly–in the provision of services to our “clients” bent over backwards to meet the needs of this population at the expense of taxpayers. One of the means-tested programs under which we administered in our department was the Ryan White CARE Act to prevent and treat HIV & AIDS. Not only did we give our “clients” free primary care regardless of legal status, we paid for them to take the bus and even taxis to their appointments. It’s like we had to bribe them to use our free services with promises of taxi rides, childcare and coupons. They even received massages as part of their primary care under Ryan White. I wrote a grant that paid for child car seats to distribute to this population for free–car seats which are required by law, but most people are expected to comply with it anyway. We made excuses for this population’s rampant disregard of the law, saying they were especially “family-oriented” and “nurturing” and chose to hold their child in their lap rather than strapping them in a car seat. I thought the physician was a saint to do the job he did for the money he made, serving that population. In fact, nearly all of the clinical people there I encountered were extremely dedicated to caring for and advocating for their patients. Many of the services available to this population was never available to us residents of rural Nebraska. Maybe they still aren’t, I don’t know. I didn’t have prior experience working for an institution with that population, and I was so frequently astounded at the resources devoted to serving them, quite aware that they were not available to me, and probably still aren’t. I could go into much greater detail on this topic, and I appreciate Mickey’s call for feedback from those of us with personal experience and knowledge of it. But at the moment, I need to run. Thanks for your vigilance on behalf of vulnerable American citizens, Mickey!
[…] (My friend Mickey Kaus, who sees the immigration issue pretty much the way Trump does—and thus not at all the way I do—argues that I am wrong and Trump actually is right. See if you’re convinced.) […]
The same people who have decided which promises to keep to vets have also made a decision on which of our laws are enforced. Not that anyone asked, but if it is a matter of priorities, in our search for a better life, Fred and I would much rather see the laws that apply to border security and illegal immigration enforced ? and the VA Priority Groups ignored.
No mention of Federally Qualified Health Centers http://www.fqhc.org/what-is-an-fqhc , that rely upon direct and indirect taxpayer subsidies and are required to provide care to illegal immigrants on the basis of income, often free. And unless an illegal immigrant gives their ITIN or the false Social Security numbers they are working under, there’s no way to check on their income. Furthermore illegal immigrants can buy insurance on the non-exchange, private market under ObamaCare’s must issue, no medical underwriting mandates. But unlike legal residents who must pay a tax penalty for not being insured, illegal immigrants aren’t required to have medical insurance so they can just wait until they need care to buy insurance which will pay out more than their premiums.
If you are undocumented, you can get emergency room care and not pay for it. This includes childbirth. It is a fact that pregnant women head to the U.S. to have their babies. This has been extensively reported in the New York Times, and the LA Times. Two advantages: better care plus citizenship for the infant. Vets, on the other hand, would have to pay for this same care.
[…] (My friend Mickey Kaus, who sees the immigration issue pretty much the way Trump does—and thus not at all the way I do—argues that I am wrong and Trump actually is right. See if you’re convinced.) […]
[…] (My friend Mickey Kaus, who sees the immigration issue pretty much the way Trump does—and thus not at all the way I do—argues that I am wrong and Trump actually is right. See if you’re convinced.) […]
USMC/Vietnam vet/’Service Connected’ Disability/NYC. I’m seventy years old, written James Fallows several times on his coverage of the VA (I linked to you from his column). Sorry to disappoint you, but I agree with him 100%. My primary care is at the VA hospital on E.23d in NYC, which happens to be affiliated with NYU. I don’t think I could receive better care privately. I could give uou examples if you’d like, but please stop your blathering……
[…] (My friend Mickey Kaus, who sees the immigration issue pretty much the way Trump does—and thus not at all the way I do—argues that I am wrong and Trump actually is right. See if you’re convinced.) […]
I am a veteran and was taken to Mayaguez Medical Center for Abdominal Bleeding. They don’t have an I.V. Team to give me I.V. fluids because my veins are shot. I asked for transfer to Veterans Hospital San Juan. The VA told me that I had to pay $400.00 for ambulance service to VA Hospital. Yet illegal aliens get free medical transportation and helicopter medivac service.